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Madness are probably accepted by the bulk of our readers as nothing more than a pop band. Well in the last year, they've started making some astonishingly good records, and this interview with them might help people realise Madness are as honest a band as they come, as well as giving a bit of an insight into the way the music biz works. It was done on an 'interview day' at Stiff, with different members of the band doing dozens of interviews, and with me constantly being asked to conclude our discussion by a Stiff press girl. Nevertheless I cornered Suggs and Mark Bedford for an hour, and despite expecting a typical Madness piss-take event, found Suggs extremely talkative (and very fond of swearing), and came away with what seems like a pretty definitive chat. Modest bugger, aren't I?
DO YOU MIND ALL THE SINGLES COMING OFF THE LP'S?
Suggs: Yeah we do, but the trouble is they have a funny way of talking round things. It's the old story of 'If you don't want to buy it, then don't buy it', although I know that's not wholly true. We hardly make any money at all off a single - they're just to promote albums really. (Goes in to see Stiff supremo Dave Robinson & sorts out how much they do earn) ... Yeah, that (Los Palmas) 12" - we were losing 2p on each copy. And there was 20,000 of them. Singles off albums can go too far, but we won't release any more off this album. It's just a line you've got to work out for yourself.
SO YOU STILL HAVE TOTAL CONTROL OF WHAT GOES OUT?
Suggs: Yeah. But if you spend an hour talking to Dave Robinson when he wants you to put a track out, it's really hard to come out convinced you were right when you went in. But it's in our contracts, and we do get on really well with Dave Robinson. But things like Night Boat to Cairo - we wanted to remix it or put another track on it, but we were away on tour. By the time we came back it was all done and packaged, and it was "Well, you can send it back if you want, but it's on the presses."
Chris Foreman: We went to America, came back, and that was done. It was a heavy argument.
Mark: It was our one big row with Stiff.
Suggs: And it was an EP, which never got advertised at all.
THE OTHER TRACKS WERE AS GOOD - IF NOT BETTER - THAN NIGHT BOAT TO CAIRO ANYWAY.
Suggs: That was the thing. He sent out all copies to DJ's and people with just Night Boat and Don't Quote Me on it.
SO DO YOU PLAN ALL YOUR RECORDS WELL IN ADVANCE, BECAUSE IT SEEMS LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT'S COMING OUT SIX MONTHS BEFOREHAND?
Mark: No, not that much. But we do know roughly what we're going to do.
Suggs: But if you've got songs recorded it only takes a minute to decide what your single's going to be. We don't plan "Well, we'll record a single in January"; we record a load of songs, and then work out which will be a single and when.
DO YOU FEEL LIKE POP STARS?
Suggs: Yeah. But I don't wanna be a pop star though. I always talk about this - I was talking about it to my girlfriend last night. I really hate it. When we went to the BBC Rock & Pop Awards, I hated it; I felt like being ill.
Mark: It was all the 'Hello darling' set. 'Oh David' - all that sort.
Suggs: 'Wasn't it great?'
Mark: 'Fabulous'. It was all shit - a real load of rubbish.
THE THING IS THAT THOUGH YOU FEEL LIKE THAT, IT COMES OVER ON TV AS THOUGH YOU REALLY ENJOY DOING IT .....
Suggs: That's the hard thing:- are you going to be forced into being in a really bad mood by a load of old cunts, or are you going to be the best band in the world? When you do your 'thing' or whatever - maaan - you can't think about things like that or you'd just sit there going .....
WHAT DID SUE LAWLEY THINK ABOUT THE CUSTARD PIE IN HER FACE?
Suggs: Well, we'll probably get a very annoyed letter. We're not allowed on Tiswas anymore.
Mark: He removed one of Sally James' eyelashes.
Suggs: Yeah, I had a pair of gloves on, and I squirted this stuff in her face. Then I did it again by accident and thought 'Oh shit!' So I tried to get it out of her eyes, and I pulled one of her false eyelashes out!
Mark (laughing): That was great! So never again will we appear on Tiswas. Or any other Stiff artists.
Suggs: But yeah - it's really hard being a pop star and trying to remain normal. But you can't have the best of both worlds I suppose.
WHEN YOU WERE AT THE 101 CLUB A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, IT WAS LIKE YOU WEREN'T BOTHERED ABOUT BEING FAMOUS. YOU FELT YOU COULD GO TO A GIG AND NOT WORRY ABOUT IT.
Suggs: Well I'm determined to do that. Like concerts - I'll just go and have a drink in the bar, and if I get fucking mobbed .... well, I'm just going to fucking do it. Every night I'm going to go out, and if I can't have a drink at the bar and be normal - if I have to hide in the dressing room every fucking night; you know, get limos to go out and get a packet of fucking chips .... You know, I wanna live a normal life. And though I am a pop star, I'm not going to be one in my own mind. I'm not going to do the rounds. I hate it, I really fucking hate it. I suppose I can't look at it objectively, but I just never ask for anybody else's autographs. Maybe 'cos I know what a bore it is. You just feel 'Why?' Don't look to me for fuck's sake. If you're looking at me for inspiration or whatever, I'm just - I can't write any fucking lyrics, I can just about sing ......
DO YOU GET STOPPED A LOT IN THE STREET?
Suggs: Yeah, all the fucking time .....
DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE TO PUT ON A SMILE, OR DO YOU SPEAK TO THEM ACCORDING TO HOW YOU FEEL?
Suggs: Sometimes I do, but sometimes I just walk off. Like I was having a drink in a pub once, and this bloke started grabbing my shoulder, and going 'Oi! It is! It is!' So I just walked out.
HAVE YOU HAD PEOPLE HASSLING YOU MUCH, 'COS THEY'RE JEALOUS OR SOMETHING?
Mark: I've had a lot of trouble with someone ringing me up all the time, & that's really horrible.
Suggs: Carl (Chas's real name) had two girls round his house at 1.00 in the morning, pissed, going "Let us in, we've got a right, we're your fans", and he was going "Fuck off, I wanna go to bed"; and they were there for an hour ringing the bell. But I think 'cos of what we're like, we haven't made many enemies in the public eye. I think a lot of people reckon 'Oh Madness - fucking pop band', they're indifferent to us, and won't listen to us, but nobody really hates us. We haven't made any really strong statements about anything, so there's nothing people can hate really - except that we're pop stars.
AT THE MOMENT HAVE YOU ACHIEVED WHAT YOU WANTED TO ACHIEVE?
Suggs: Well I think we've reached the stage where we're one-step-beyonding still, and we've just gone as far as we can with all that. We've definitely reached where we wanted to reach with all that jumping up and down in porkpie hats and stuff.
Mark: Shit, yeah.
Suggs: So I think at the moment it's a new era for everyone. No one in the music business knows what's going to happen next.
HAVE YOU GOT ANY IDEAS WHAT WILL?
Suggs: Not really. I think it's going to go back to glam stuff - Adam Ant will be the new Gary Glitter or David Bowie and it'll be like that, going back to superstars.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF ADAM & THE ANTS?
Suggs: I like 'em. When we were coming back from the airport recently, we all got in this taxi, & we were going down the Westway, when this dirty great limo came past with Adam sitting in it on his own.
Mark: I think he was as embarrassed as we were.
(I SAY A BIT ABOUT ADAM'S LOSING ALL HIS EARLIER FOLLOWERS ....)
Suggs: That's why I think that making statements - like all this 'Oi! Oi!' stuff - well, when you're in the music business you realise you're just a part of it. You're just a fucking cog. The best that you can do is stay the same as you were and not make any great ideals about anything. Anything you do, you're only selling more records, which helps the record company, which helps the businessman, which helps ..... you know what I mean?
Mark: Music won't really change anything.
DON'T YOU THINK THAT'S A BIT NEGATIVE?
Mark: No, I just think it's realistic.
Suggs: I just think the best you can do is stay the same as you started out as. But you can't stay being a punk while earning £6,000,000 a year. You just can't. And I think The Jam have stayed pretty much the same, I think we have, the Specials have, and a couple of other people. And I think it's good that a lot of 'pop stars' now are just anti-pop stars.
BUT PEOPLE LIKE ADAM ANT ARE POP STARS.
Suggs: Yeah that's true. I can see them making it in America actually. But while it happened pretty quickly for us, after he worked two years in a punk band, I bet he loves every minute of it. Well he must be - releasing a single every day. He just wants to get as much out of it as he can.
(I mention the farce of all the reissues .....)
Suggs: That's what I mean - it's all a fucking joke. And whatever reasons you make for things, it's really because you want to be more successful and more popular and more rich or whatever. I mean that is the reason for everything you do. And to have more of a laugh. I mean all this 'Re-released to public demand' is just a load of arse.
DO YOU EVER GET BORED BY TOURING?
Suggs: Yeah, I think we did on the last tour.
Mark: Two shows a night, and by the end of it, everyone was really tired.
Suggs: We just weren't getting any fucking time. We wanted to think of something interesting to do on that tour. It's just really hard to make it more interesting but not to have things like smoke bombs and lasers. A change would be really good - that's why the film thing's being banded about.
IN ENGLAND, HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT JUST DOING AN AREA OF THE COUNTRY AT A TIME?
Suggs: I think it would be really good just to do four dates in a row, then to have a weekend or 4 days off. We've got to have a think about it.
Mark: We had a talk before the 2nd album came out, about what we were going to do now, and nothing really happened, except ....
Suggs: Suddenly we were on tour again! Writing the set list on the bus and all that bollocks. I enjoy doing just 5 dates though.
DO YOU FEEL EMBARRASSED ABOUT THINGS LIKE TOTP WHEN YOU'RE ON IT? OR DO YOU TRY AND GET INTO IT AND MAKE THE BEST OF IT?
Suggs: Sometimes it's embarrassing. We like to make it interesting to watch, for ourselves as much as anybody. When we did Night Boat to Cairo once we wore all this stupid gear, and I felt really embarrassed, 'cos UB40 and Dexy's were there as well, and we had all this ridiculous gear on.
I THINK IT'S MUCH SILLIER THE OTHER GROUPS THAT GO ON AND PRETEND THEY ARE SINGING.
Mark: That's the thing - trying to pretend you're playing live on TOTP is fucking incredible.
HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT GIVING OUT MESSAGES? YOU WERE SAYING EARLIER THAT THERE WEREN'T ANY, BUT DOESN'T IT COME OVER AS JUST A BIT TOO MUCH ENTERTAINMENT AT TIMES?
Suggs: I dunno. Yeah well, I mean ....... I dunno (pauses) .... I feel the same as everyone else really, everyone else who's alright. I feel that I hate Nazis; and I hate extremists of any description; and I hate Maggie Thatcher .....
Mark: .... Violence ......
Suggs: ..... I drink my pints of beer with the lads - yeah I hate violence at concerts; and I hate people being charged too much for things; and I hate fucking businessmen; I hate everything that everyone else hates - we all hate the same things! (Pauses again) ...... I think you either .... I dunno what I fucking think really. (Sighs) ..... I wouldn't not write a song about that, you know?
IT SEEMS LIKE EMBARRASSMENT & NOT HOME TODAY - I KNOW WHAT THE SONGS ARE ABOUT, BUT ONLY 'COS HE (MARK)'S TOLD ME. I DON'T THINK PEOPLE BUYING THEM WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT.
Suggs: I dunno, well yeah. What difference does it fucking make?
Mark: I think it should be up to the individual what they read into a song.
Suggs: If you're sitting at home and you put on a record like 'Burn Down The System'; you take it off and put Baggy Trousers. It doesn't make you think 'Maybe I should go and burn down the system' - it makes you think 'Well I feel like that anyway'.
Mark: That's what I mean by saying that I don't think that music can really change that much.
Suggs: And half the time you find that the cunts who write songs like that aren't bothered anyway. Johnny Rotten never gave a fuck about anything - except himself really.
IN THE DAILY STAR IT HAD CHAS SAYING THAT BAGGY TROUSERS WAS ABOUT HOW SCHOOL WAS GOOD.
Suggs: Yeah it was a bit - I said that actually. But it was like that fucking Pink Floyd thing - 'Teachers leave the kids alone'. It's just a load of bollocks. It's just about how it's boring for the teachers, it's boring for the kids, but what else is there? What do you do - just hang around on street corners smoking fags and playing snooker all day. Life isn't like that. Obviously, education does have some importance.
(A debate follows for the next 5 minutes, with Mark & Suggs saying school isn't great, but it can't be changed, me disagreeing).
Suggs: What's funny though, is I can remember being at school and hating it, and everyone saying 'You'll look back on it, and like it'. I don't look back on it and like it, but you look back at the innocence of your youth. Same as when the band started:- playing in a sweaty pub with £5 between the 7 of us, and everyone saying 'You'll look back on it and love this', and we thought 'Bollocks' - we were having to shift our own gear - but I really like looking back on it now.
I HAVEN'T SEEN DANCE CRAZE YET, BUT EVERYONE SAYS IT SHOULD HAVE GONE MORE INTO TALKING TO THE FANS AND THAT .....
Suggs: We just didn't have any say in that film. Jerry Dammers did.
I'D HAVE THOUGHT HE'D HAVE DONE IT WELL.
Suggs: I know - that's what made us all a bit sick. When we were watching the premiere he walked out and said he wouldn't have anything to do with it! And he'd been up to the editing every day. What I thought is that they should have taken one number from each band and given it to the group's to do something with. We'd have gone out and talked to a few people and had a bit about the history of the band. I think our videos are always pretty interesting, so we could have done something a bit more varied than a live show.
Mark: I think it's time though again. We didn't have any, and Jerry didn't.
DO YOU GET A LOT OF PRESSURES ABOUT THAT? YOU HAVEN'T GOT THE TIME TO DO WHAT YOU WANT TO?
Suggs: Oh yeah - I mean we started off with the intention of designing our own bags and everything, 'cos we're all quite artistic. Suddenly though, you're on tour in Glasgow and the single's out in London, and it seems that we never have time to do anything.
Mark: It's like The Clash made all those statements about what they were going to do, but they found exactly the same. CBS say 'Whop, off you go on tour boys', and it goes down the drain.
Suggs: Honestly thinking about it, we're like a lot of bands would like to be. You know, we're in a position where we're still enjoying it; we don't have any leaders in the group telling us what to do; we're all really free men in our band; we can go in any musical direction we want to; we're popular, we haven't made any statements that we have to regret or get embarrassed about - there's nothing we've done we're embarrassed about.
THAT BIT ABOUT NO LEADERS .... WHEN I DID THE ARTICLE FOR THE FACE, YOU (SUGGS) SEEMED TO DISAPPEAR DELIBERATELY THE MOMENT THE INTERVIEW GOT UNDER WAY, AS THOUGH YOU WANTED THE OTHERS TO GET ATTENTION .....
Suggs: Yeah that was it entirely:- I may be the face of the group because I'm the singer, but I don't have anything more to say than anyone else does.
Mark: Yeah, I think the rest of the group - speaking as the rest of the group here! - I think we pretty much accept it; truthfully it does sometimes nark you, and you do want your say, but it's the thing. I accept that Suggs definitely is the face of the band, and they want him interviewed 'cos it's good copy. That's the way the media works.
WHAT SORT OF MUSIC ARE YOU GOING TOWARDS NOW?
Suggs: I dunno really, like Grey Day is really fucking meaningful man, because we've got something to say. Like I don't know what the fuck goes on in Lee's mind, and he writes a lot of the lyrics; I don't know what Mike thinks - he writes tunes; and no one knows what I think half the time. So you can't really tell what's going to happen next - it depends who the next song's by.
DO YOU GET ARGUMENTS ABOUT THAT A LOT? LIKE SOMEBODY SAYING 'AH IT'S ABOUT TIME YOU DID ONE OF MY SONGS'?
Suggs: No, it's more like - 'You know that song you wrote, well I've got these lyrics': 'Well Suggs has written some already I'm afraid'; 'No, well fuck them, give these a try, they're better!' I mean no one gets really annoyed about it. Everybody's had a bash at writing.
IS THE LINE-UP ALWAYS PRETTY STABLE PEOPLE-WISE?
Suggs: Yeah it is, 'cos we all realise our own abilities - we're able to talk to one another. We all look at ourselves pretty objectively, and we all know we've got our own failings.
- Contributed by Judge Fredd
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